"Wonderful things were to be seen. Numbers of
the Saracens were beheaded . . . Others were shot
with arrows, or forced to jump from the towers; 
others were tortured for several days, then burned
with flames. In the streets were seen piles of heads
and hands and feet. One rode about everywhere
amid the corpses of men and horses. In the temple
of Solomon, the horses waded in the blood up to
their knees, nay, up to the bridle. It was a just and
marvelous judgement of God, that this place should
be filled with the blood of unbelievers."

---Raymond of Aguilers, describing the actions of
the Christian Crusaders against Muslims and Jews
in Jerusalem, 1099

From: Del <jfacts@earthlink.net> Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.philosophy.objectivism,sci.philosophy.meta,talk.atheism,talk.origins,talk.philosophy.humanism,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.religion.misc Subject: Re: Can Science Say If God Exists? Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 08:29:55 -0800 "Ken Beirne" <kjbeirne@mindspring.com> doesn't know what makes the Crusades a sin and Pope Urban II a "recognized sinner" > > >One does not pick the recognized sinners of each > > >breed and simply say, aha, those are the real examples. > > > > Another straw man. Was Pope Urban II, who called for the crusades, a > > "recognized sinner"? I was unaware of this. > > No, but what makes the Crusades a sin? At worst they were a war At worst? Oh brother. Here is what I am talking about "pal." Read it and rationalize it as we know you will: "On November 27, 1095 Pope Urban II went to Clermont-Ferrand in Southern France and delivered a speech which started almost half a millenium of Crusades against the 'infidel' Muslims. ..." he appealed to all of Christian Europe to send off armies to save Byzantium and rescue the Holy Land from the unbelievers, offering remission from all sins, past and future, for those who shared in this endeavor. "There was no particular reason that these Crusades should have effected the Jews, but they did because of the passions involved. "Those Christians who were stirred to believe that the Muslims were the embodiment of all evil soon found it convenient to include the Jews who were prospering in the Muslim lands and therefore supporting the Muslims against the Crusader attacks in fear of renewed spread of anti-Semitism into the Middle East, and who were in any case considered just as bad as the Muslims" "People who felt that they were servants of God, with all sins forgiven in advance for what they were going to do in the Holy Land, were in no way inhibited from plundering the Jews as they went along, particularly when the monks who accompanied them suggested that it would add to their favor with God if they forced the Jews they found to convert to Christianity as well. "So as the Crusaders marched along from England and France through Germany and Austria toward the Islamic Middle East, they sacked and often destroyed Jewish communities found along their paths massacring many as they went in Germany and Bohemia in particular. "When one group of Crusaders led by Emmerich Count of Leinigen, reached Worms they demanded ransom from its Jews, who paid. But soon afterwards he sent his men to break into their houses, slaughtering the men and children and raping the women, with many committing suicide to save themselves. "Many Jews were burned alive in their synagogues. After seven days of this, the Jews who survived were offered the opportunity to baptism and convert to Christianity with the alternative of being turned over to the crowd to be torn apart. "They were given time to think about it in the local synagogue, but when no answer came, the mob broke in and found all the Jews had committed suicide. The same thing happened as the Crusade went on to Mainz and Cologne, and throughout the Rhineland." For the situation of Jews in Europe during the Crusades see Crusades', EJ V, 1135-1140. Bernard Lewis, Semites and anti-Semites: An Inquiry into Conflict and Prejudice (New York and London, Norton, 1986), 101. 'France', EJ VII, 13. 'Anti-Semitism', EJ III (Jerusalem, 1972), 102. 'Germany', EJ VI, 462-463. > > The Church also gave its blessing > > to the perpetrators of the wholesale slaughter of native > > Americans in the New World. "Convert or die" was the theme > > of Columbus and those who followed. > > > Pish tosh. This is new age PC propaganda. Jeeze. Cure your amazing ignorance. Here, how about an eye witness account, bubba? A translation taken from Bartolome de las Casas' General History of the Indies, published in the 1540's. Good enough for ya? las Casas, was a Spaniard who went to the new world shortly after Columbus' fourth and last voyage. He is considered one of the most reliable witness to the events that Christianity precipitated in the new world between about 1510 and 1550. His father and uncle were crew members of Columbus' second voyage, thus he had the benefit of their early first hand witness accounts. Here he was commenting in his book upon what his fellow Christians did to the indigenous population. Over and over again, the conquistadors defended their actions in the name of spreading Christianity, as did their apologists such as Pope Leo XIII who described Columbus as: " a man from Liguria who landed, under the auspices of *God* in the New World" and who "returned thousands and thousands of mortals to the common society of the human race, led from their barbarous life to peacefulness and civilization and, which is of much more importance, recalled from perdition to eternal life by the bestowal of gifts which Jesus Christ brought the world." As for las Casas, here is what he writes: "And Spaniards have behaved in no other way during the past forty years, down to the present time, for they are still acting like ravening beasts, killing, terrorizing, afflicting, torturing, and destroying the native peoples, doing all this with the strangest and most varied methods of cruelty, never seen or heard of before, and to such a degree that this island of Hispanola, once so populous, having a population that I estimate to have been more than three millions, has now a population of barely two hundred persons." "The island of Cuba is now almost completely depopulated; ... San Juan and Jamaica are deserted and devastated. ... On the northern side of Cuba and Hispanola lie the neighboring Lucayos, comprising more than sixty islands, some small, some large. They have the healthiest islands in the world, where lived more than five hundred thousand souls; they are now deserted, inhabited by not a single living creature. "All the people were slain or died after being taken into captivity and brought to Hispanola to be sold as slaves. ... We can estimate very surely and truthfully that in the forty years that have passed, with the infernal actions of the Christians, there have been unjustly slain more than twelve million men, women, and children. In truth, I believe without trying to deceive myself that the number of slain is more like fifteen million." " On the island Hispanola was where the Spaniards first landed. Here those Christians perpetrated their first ravages and oppressions against the native peoples. This was the first land in the New World to be destroyed and depopulated by the Christians, and here they began their subjection of the women and children, taking them away from the Indians to use them and ill use them, "And they committed other acts of force and violence and oppression which made the Indians realize that these men had not come from Heaven. And some of the Indians concealed their foods while others concealed their wives and children and still others fled to the mountains to avoid the terrible transactions of the Christians. "And the Christians attacked them with buffets and beatings, until they finally laid hands on the nobles of the villages. Then they behaved with such temerity and shamelessness that the most powerful ruler of the islands had to see his own wife raped by a Christian officer. ... "And the Christians, with their horses and swords and pikes began to carry out massacres and strange cruelties against them. They attacked the towns and spared neither the children nor the aged nor pregnant women nor women in childbed, not only stabbing them and dismembering them, but cutting them to pieces as if dealing with sheep in the slaughter house. They laid bets, as to who, with one stroke of the sword, could split a man in two or could cut off his head or spill out his entrails with a single stroke of the pike. "They took infants from their mothers' breasts, snatching them by the legs and pitching them headfirst against the crags or snatched them by the arms and threw them into the rivers, roaring with laughter and saying as the babies fell into the water, "Boil there, you offspring of the devil!" "Other infants they put to the sword, along with their mothers and anyone else who happened to be nearby. "They made some low wide gallows on which the hanged victim's feet almost touched the ground, stringing up their victims in lots of thirteen, in memory of Our Redeemer and His twelve apostles, then set burning wood at their feet and thus burned them alive. " To others they attached straw or wrapped their whole bodies in straw and set them afire. ..." ------ New age PC propaganda indeed. We see the results of compound-ignorance and the will to rationalize....